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Haiti (NOT AS IT SEEMS) Coup???
Posted by: brmecham
Date: July 27, 2004 03:53PM
How can I believe anything said against the U.S. government when the people talking against government corruption are wrong in the one thing I truly have experience in ????
Was the situation in Haiti a coup enforced by the US? I doubt it.
First of all, I lived my whole life (23 years) in Utah, United States of America, except for two years when I lived in Haiti (2001-2002.)
People say this was a coup! if a coup, only by the Haitian people. If you know Haiti, the Haitian Government and know what the people of Haiti are like, you will know that it was the Haitian people that wanted Aristide out! He was a corrupt tyrant! During the two years I lived in Haiti, I witnessed much of the corruption of the Haitian government. The elections were rigged! The reason Aristide had more than 90% of the vote is because people were threatened! and because people in charge of supervising the vote would be killed if they said anything about the ballots being stuffed with aristide votes, by aristide's evil men! The list goes on and on in the corruption of the Haitian government.
Not just living in Haiti, but speaking Creole fluently in Haiti is the only way to know Haiti, and I do speak fluent haitian-creole (the Haitian language.)
It's hard to believe anything! I believe there is a lot of corruption in the U.S. government; I also support their actions in Haiti. I believe that Aristide knew how great the threat was against his life and he asked the U.S. to get him out of Haiti. Aristide had no Haitian protection against the rebels! His police force was not enough, and would have mostly joined the rebels, because even Aristide's police knew he was corrupt. I also believe that because the U.S. knew that the Haitians didn't want Aristide in office, and that he was corrupt, the U.S. wasn't going to allow him to stay in power by providing protection.
If anyone wants to debate this, I would be happy to provide more information about why I believe this.
Re: Haiti (NOT AS IT SEEMS) Coup???
Posted by: mike
Date: July 29, 2004 08:55AM
I'd be interested to hear more on you about this. However, all you provide is essentially your alleged experience. This contrasts with the information on this site , which is taken from largely credible sources. If you could provide some similarly credible information to back up your claims, I'm sure it will incorporated in the site's Haiti project if it in fact adds anything to the picture. Of course, your personal experience is very welcome, it just doesn't hold much weight against credible publications and multiple sources.
When you talk about the US not wanting to protect him due to him being corrupt, remember that it was the US' job to protect him (due to the way they set things up when reinstating him a few years earlier if I remember right). It wasn't like any action would have been required to protect him. On the contrary, action was taken to do the exact opposite (his US bodyguards were removed).
Also remember that its not up to the US to decide whats best for other countries, rather the democratic process. _if_ the previous elections were in fact frauds as you claim, then ok. Given the CIA's history of rigging / influencing elections around the world, I would say the US is in no position to judge. Especially given that I don't see the election irregularities as being as bad in Haiti as in many other countries in the region. Howeer you might think otherwise. Perhaps you have more to say on this issue? Do you think Aristide would have lost if the elections had been perfectly fair?
Edited 2 times. Last edit at 07/29/04 08:57AM by mike.
Re: Haiti (NOT AS IT SEEMS) Coup???
Posted by: egbtpl
Date: November 26, 2004 10:13AM
Well that is too bad to not see a response from brmecham. I would have been interested to read more discussion on this.
Re: Haiti (NOT AS IT SEEMS) Coup???
Posted by: brmecham
Date: April 29, 2005 12:56AM
First of all, I need to apologize that I didn’t respond until now. I kind of lost track of this posting.
The information I gave was indeed my personal experience in Haiti, but it was from the experience I had speaking with the common folk in Haiti. I spent 2 years in Haiti as a missionary. On an average day I spent at least 9 hours speaking with Haitians, yes mostly about religion, but I also learned and experienced a great deal about what was going on in the country, politically.
There is no doubt in my mind that Aristide was very corrupt. Many Haitians, when given any power, become this way (and it’s similar around the world, not just for Haitians). I am happy that Haiti will get new leadership, but I am afraid that their new leader will become corrupt just as many in the past.
Corruption that was evident - President Aristide had a street gang, mostly teenagers, whom were paid to kill his enemies. They were also involved in a lot of other violence. In Haiti, people would always remind me to be careful of what I said about the government, because if they heard you speaking badly you risk being killed.
You said “that it was the US' job to protect him.” They did protect him, but with certain limits. The US protected him by helping him out of the country, but they would not protect him by helping him stay in office.
In the news you might have seen a lot of Haitians, who liked Aristide, protesting saying that it was a U.S. backed coup… You have to consider one important thing here, these are Haitians in the U.S.! How do Haitians get to the U.S.? Most of them have money. From my experience, the Haitians who were “rich” or even fortunate enough to come to the U.S. usually did like Aristide, some of them got rich because of the corrupt government. The majority of Haitians were poor, and didn’t like Aristide, but of course, the poor don’t have much of a voice in Haiti.
You stated “This contrasts with the information on this site , which is taken from largely credible sources.” Where do you think these “credible sources” got their information? You think they speak Haitian-Creole and they went and got their info from the poor-majority Haitians? I don’t think so. They are most likely getting their info from Aristide supporters in the U.S., from the Lavalas (Aristide’s political party), and from the wealthy Haitians. This is obviously biased reporting by the media.
There were too many Haitians that didn’t like Aristide as a leader. He had too many broken promises. He said that things would get better in Haiti, but they didn’t. Millions of dollars in aid stopped coming in because of the corruption of the Haitian Government. They didn’t do what they said they would do with the money. An experience with the church I belong to - when we would send cargo from the U.S. to Haiti, the government officials who worked customs at the shipping yards would take what they wanted from the cargo before allowing the church in Haiti to receive it. Many organizations experienced this same problem. Many other organizations that wanted to send help wouldn’t because of the corruption. For example, if you donated clothing to Haiti, most likely the clothes that were meant to be given out for FREE, would actually end up being given for money. It’s the same with most donations.
Aristide campaigned on the promise “Lape nan tet, lape nan vant.” (peace of mind, peace in the stomach), but Haitians often complained about how they never got that. Aristide promoted a reading and writing program “alfabetization” which was only slightly successful in helping a small amount of people learn to read and write. Aristide also convinced people to invest in Cooperatives (businesses that used money invested by others to make more money), and promised that it was not risky and would be beneficial to the country. Many Haitians lost their life savings in these Cooperatives, when the people running them disappeared with all the money. I was in Haiti when this happened – these Cooperatives were so popular, and suddenly within a matter of weeks most of them were gone. Many Haitians also believed that Aristide was in on the drug rings as well, but I didn’t personally see that, just heard it from Haitians.
I got to Haiti shortly after the re-election of Aristide. Haitians would tell me stories of ballot boxes being stuffed with illegitimate votes for Aristide, and they couldn’t do anything about it. I even knew someone who was in charge of supervising one of the voting locations, and he couldn’t stop the ballot-rigging, he would have been killed if he did. In the U.S. we have the Republicans and Democrats as the majority parties with nearly an even split, plus many 3rd small third parties. In Haiti, there is the dominant Lavalas (Aristide’s Party) and then the smaller, non-significant parties. (Though now since Aristide’s removal, the Lavalas are being hunted and persecuted!) Aristide may have still won even if the elections were fair, because as Haitians explained it to me, there were no other influential candidates. No one else had a chance because of the monopoly the Lavalas Party had at that time. I remember about a year after the election there was a man who campaigned against Aristide, claiming to be the rightful leader of Haiti, because of the election fraud. I don’t remember his name now, but I remember that was a big issue at the time, and cause some confrontations.
Even now, it might not matter who is in power, or which political party is in power, unless a miracle happens, I don’t think things will get better. Haiti has been through corrupt leader after corrupt leader for 200 years since becoming the first “black” Republic. I can’t say that the next leader won’t be as corrupt or more corrupt than Aristide. Even Haiti’s first emperor, Jean-Jacques Dessalines, was murdered by his own people.
There is a myth in Haiti that when they got freedom and independence in 1804 it was because of a deal that had been made with the devil, a 200-year contract. If this is true, the 200-year contract with the devil has ended and things in Haiti will go uphill from here. I can only hope.
Re: Haiti (NOT AS IT SEEMS) Coup??? UPDATE
Posted by: brmecham
Date: June 1, 2005 06:08AM
I have an update on what I have described about Haiti.
A Haitian friend of mine from Haiti recently visited the United States. I asked him a few questions about the situation in Haiti.
I noticed that there is a group of Haitians in the U.S. that support ex-President Aristide and say that he should be back in power. The truth is that these Haitians don't understand what's going on, they are living in the U.S. not Haiti.
My Haitian friend stated that most Haitians do not like President Aristide, and most of them agree that it was good that he is gone. While I was in Haiti I thought this was the case, it was good to be reassured by a knowledgeable Haitian that they truly didn't like Aristide in power.
He also commented on the U.N. being in Haiti. He said that it was a lot better when the U.S. and French soldiers were in Haiti because they actually got some work done, they took their duties seriously. The Brazilian soldiers who are currently there as part of the U.N. are said to be lazy and do a lot of sleeping around with women, they are just there to "Kale Lwes" (Haitian for being good for nothing.)
The more and more I talk to Haitians (the ones who actually live in Haiti) about this political situation the more I see that it's a good thing Aristide is gone. They also agree that it's going to take years for things to get good, if they get good at all.
I am not denying the information included in your timeline about U.S. involvement in Haiti (It sound like something our corrupt goverment would do). I certainly don't agree with the U.S. invasion of Haiti, Iraq or any other country, but I do know that Aristide and his Lavalas Party are corrupt leaders who did little if any good for Haiti. The Haitians are glad to see them gone.
...this is coming from a Constitutional Conservative who doesn't side with Republicans or Democrats. I believe in defending Constitutional principles.
see my conservative site [www.latterdayconservative.com
Edited 2 times. Last edit at 06/01/05 07:02AM by brmecham.
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