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Welcome to the Center for Cooperative Research forum. This forum is intended to enable additional collaboration and facilitate the sharing of information, which is what this site is all about. Any questions / suggestions / criticisms regarding the site in general are also welcome.

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Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: Metalious (IP Logged)
Date: April 3, 2004 01:11PM

The new format is great.

Organising all of this information in a way that makes it accessible, searchable and generally useful appears to be as challenging as it was to compile it. The new format goes a long way towards that objective.

I have two recommendations:

1. Regarding the forum, even though it appears to be a bit dead now, I guarantee that it will not remain so. Now that it's a prominent feature of the site, or at least easy to find, it needs to be a full featured forum with topic sections.

The forum has the potential to be as powerful a research tool as the rest of the site. It is clearly the best way to cooperate on research.

It should have many categories -- Iraq, 911, Corp, etc. Perhaps even sub-categories.

I'm not too familier with Phorum. But if it can't accomodate this level of sophistication, which I think it probably can, there are plenty of free open source BBS scripts that can.

Please see the potential of a thriving forum community and upgrade or switch formats now before there is a massive database to try and port over.

2. On a lesser note, there needs to be an idiot version of the timeline. Using a zoom lense analogy, it would be dramatically more effective, in the effort to spread the message so to speak, to have a "zoomed-out" version, with the big facts only, as a primer.

This macro vs. micro approach offers the public a comprehensive overview to wrap their brains around before delving into the finer points.

A good primer would be 3 pages tops.

Information is not Knowledge

Re: Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: mike (IP Logged)
Date: April 3, 2004 02:40PM

Those are some good recommendations.

Phorum can support having multiple topics. They had previously been disabled as the old site barely generated enough traffic for one. I don't know about it handling sub-topics etc. There are without a doubt more powerful alternatives out there. Phorum was chosen partly due to its simplicity (making it somewhat easier to customise), but the consideration was make in the context of a different website, so reconsideration is definitely in order.

Regarding the 'idiot' version of the September 11th timeline suggestion. Thats definitely something that should be done at some point. I agree that making the information on the site more accessible in general requires more work. Theres a lot of things we're currently working on :).

Once the editing system is up - work on which is underway but will take a while - then there will be nothing stopping a user creating their own 'short sept11th timeline', which could contain links to the relevant parts of the main sept11th timeline for users interested in the 'zoomed-in' version. Alternatively, a user could create a 'sept11th timeline highlights' timeline which would simply contain those entries from the sept11th timeline which the user considers most interesting. We have all these possibilities in mind in designing how the system will work.

You'll find that the timelines taken from the old 'Forgotten History' website tend to take more of a 'zoomed-out' approach, while the Iraq project and Sept 11th project timelines (taken from the old CCR website) take more of a 'zoomed-in' approach. The site aims to accomodate having timelines of multiple granularity on the same subjects.

Re: Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: paulthompson (IP Logged)
Date: April 4, 2004 01:08AM

I'm the author of the 9/11 timeline. I hope traffic here will soon mean the need to subdivide the forums. What we really need are moderators to help guide the process. I'd like to spend my time working on the timeline instead.

There is an abridged version of the timeline, but it's out of date and needs work. If anyone wants to help with that and give feedback on what info is most important, I'm all ears.

Meanwhile, as I mentioned elsewhere, there is also this website:

which has two "timeline for dummies" type pages.

Re: Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: paulthompson (IP Logged)
Date: April 4, 2004 01:41AM

By the way, here's the link to the abridged version of the timeline:


as you can see, it's been forgotten and not updated in a long time. But it could be revived and spruced up.

Re: Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: Metalious (IP Logged)
Date: April 8, 2004 10:15PM

Thank you Paul for all the amazing work. Your timelines are a service to all. History will be greatfull. But they also demonstrate the power of the internet to accelerate historical study.

Without it, this compilation would have taken years if it happened at all, the 9/11 widows would not be as informed, and we may never have gotten a 9/11 commission. Thanks for putting this together in time to really use it.

Speaking of the 9/11 widows, I just saw them on Hardball tonight reciting facts that I read a year ago in your timeline.

Of course the jury is still out on the 9/11 commission. But I thought I should start (almost) my participation in this forum with some well deserved gratitude to you and your partners for the great service you've provided.


Re: Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: Metalious (IP Logged)
Date: April 8, 2004 10:18PM

Wow, I just read somewhere else that Mike is the creator of the website. I didn't know that so I append my above remarks to wholeheartedly incude you Mike.

Great job to you both.


Re: Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: photophreak (IP Logged)
Date: April 13, 2004 04:36PM

Paul and Mike: Thank you so much.

Here's one suggestion.
Offer a sub-timeline of the most glaring anomalies/"coincidences"

E.g., the Rocky Hammad/Katherine Smith/Don Wiley/O.C. Smith matrix...
the Pentagon and NRO exercises...
(and Amalgam Virgo and Vigilant Guardian)
Daniel Lewin on Flight 11...
ISI Director meeting with Graham and Goss...
the Offutt charity event...
Cipro in the White House on 9/11...
Pentagon brass cancelled trip...
The collapse of WTC7...

It could provide an initial jolt of horror to 9/11 novices.
Just a suggestion.

Another suggestion would be to follow the subsequent media coverage/law enforcement investigations of certain stories.

E.g., the cnsnews article on the possibly 9/11-related domain names is listed on snopes as an "urban legend"...other stories have received similar "debunking"...some events such as the UA/AA put options or WTC credit card withdrawals have been abandoned by investigators...

It would be useful to be able to follow the "debunking" and "non-investigating" of such stories on your site, and it would be wonderful to read your un-debunking and re-investigating, if possible.

Another suggestion would be to list the IP addresses and owners of the site's more reknowned visitors.

I have read your timeline at least a half dozen times (the complete version) and I have printed and distributed it to friends and family. I've also linked to it on countless websites. I hope I've helped you by drawing traffic. I know I've helped whoever I sent here by opening their minds.

I hope to help you even more.
I can possibly serve this forum as a moderator, depending on the time commitment.
Also, I have a couple ideas for T-shirt and poster slogans.

Thank you again SO much for the public good you've done.
You are true citizens.


Re: Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: Milton (IP Logged)
Date: April 14, 2004 08:36AM

I really like this site. The abundance of links within reports makes verification so much more enjoyable and less time consuming than normal. I like it, I like it, I like it...

Thanks for the meticulous work.

Keep the faith.


Re: Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: photophreak (IP Logged)
Date: April 14, 2004 09:04AM

Another suggestion:

Perhaps you could offer sub-timelines of both the Joint Inquiry and the Independent Commission testimony and findings?

Re: Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: photophreak (IP Logged)
Date: April 14, 2004 09:10AM

Another suggestion:

Try to contact 9/11 Citizens Watch for an official endorsement, interviews with family members who've read your timeline, copies of and information about the lawsuits filed against the Bush administration, NORAD, et. al.

Re: Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: Jeff (IP Logged)
Date: April 15, 2004 09:30AM

Just from a personal gut feeling point of view

Calling persons as entities may be bit much for first time viewers. Is there any way to fade that part to the background. I am a programmer - but the first thing you realize when you create a GUI for instance is to sort of hide the details and make it more approachable. I understand the rationale and the organization, but it may strike people as a bit odd.

Perhaps omit the mention of entities and just have persons, organizations, etc as the top level access?

Re: Site Recommendation - Forum
Posted by: undressedmonster (IP Logged)
Date: April 20, 2004 02:53PM

Wonderful site. I've never seen anything like this where all the research and documentation is on one page.

I see that you've added a search engine. Very useful. Has it been considered to create a 'visual' version of the 911 Timeline? For an example of what I mean, you can check out an extensive timeline done for PBS:


I think it would be interesting to have an alternate version of the 911 Timeline where you can easily and visually compare the events on all four flights at the same time, minute by minute. (As opposed to a list of text.)

Let me know what your thoughts are.


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